I'm starting to doubt

The_Gamesalad_Guru

I've been around here for going on five years now. The lack of any news or direction lately has me wondering about how long game salad might be around. I'm starting to contemplate how much effort I want to put into using this software. Which is a strange place for me as I love the ease of use of this software and have invested years of my life learning and using it. The lack of a state of game salad or any direction, to me, is leaving us all in limbo. Now that we are all paying users we deserve more. I have always been a loyal supporter of the company and now I find myself feeling let down recently. They have left us out here hanging and showing a complete disregard for their paying customers right now. Right now I have stopped all my projects with game salad and am considering my options. With the lack of communication I feel I need to hedge my bets. How are you feeling right now?

gingagaming

Dave I thought this exact thing when it all blew up a few months back. Whilst Im still continuing my GameSalad project for clients, all personal stuff has been shelved and at the first opportunity I'm learning a new SDK as a reserve. GameSalad development is my full-time job and if they pull the plug for any reason, I'm left in limbo. I don't feel any support from the boys at the top and in my opinion it seems to just coast along. Broken releases, no real concentration on a solid product. Old bugs coming back and round again in a circle. With recent events from a number of big players including yourself, my trust in GS has seriously been dented. I too feel let down and wonder how long will this last.

Hopscotch

@Lost_Oasis_Games, I hear you, but GS is mostly comprised of developers, who are notoriously bad at administration and communication. Time just flies when you are up to your ears in code.

I browse the forums everyday and keeps up to date with the advances that v0.13.x is making. This is my barometer and it is very promising.

GS is currently doing what we have been clamoring about for years - stop adding hyped features and focus on giving us a stable system. In my view they are heading this way at a really good pace.

Their future intentions may not be neatly typed up in a disposable list, but are consistently communicated on the forums and visible on the bugtracker - and I can wait if I have a solid product to work with in the interim.

Personally, I feel that if GS were to fail now, despite the changes and efforts they have undertaken, then the blame should be squarely placed on the community, a community that does not realize the advantages, ease and timesaving that GS gives them right now, shortcomings and all.

I for one am happier with more results and less lists.

The_Gamesalad_Guru

@hopscotch I'm not asking for full blow manifesto but a weekly we're tackling XYZ bugs at the moment and based on the request votes we plan on tackling X in the near future.

As someone who has led large projects with large groups of people and reporting to the customers rep, communication is key. It doesn't matter how much good progress you are making if you don't communicate it. I recently finished running the computer controlled lighting system for Penn Gaming a major casino company. I had to report every week to our customer rep, my project manager and the general contractor, on our current up to date status and projected loose status. This was to ensure the customer we were on track to deliver their 250 million dollar casino on time. Especially as any set back would cost them upwards of 10 million a day. My end of the project had a value of 25 million. This is what the job calls for and if it meant I worked 16 hours that day so be it and trust me there were a lot of those days. I did this all while running my crews over seeing issues and tracking all progress and coordination with other trades. It was why I was recruited to do this. I didn't apply for the job, I was recruited because of my track record managing large projects and delivering a quality on time product. You can't keep your customers in the dark, no matter the reason and have them feel confident in you, no matter how great your progress might be.

zweg25

@Lost_Oasis_Games said:

I agree 100%. I think communication is key and I think there is a lack of it lately.

The_Gamesalad_Guru

being truth full and transparent with you customers is key to gaining their confidence. I was am always candid with the reps. If we're having issues I report it and outline what we are doing to maintain our progress. This always gave them the confidence I was on top of every issue not ignoring them and/or blindsiding them. I never had to sit down and think about where we were, why? Because I knew the current status over everything under my management an could recite it when asked. I could give a full and detailed status report on request. If some idiot like me can do it, I expect game salad to be able to take ten damn minutes a week to give a status report to it's customers, especially with a product like this that is always in flux. There are no excuses in my book. If I don't except it from myself, I will expect it from others as well.

Hopscotch

@Lost_Oasis_Games said:
communication is key.

Sure is - the difference though is, that contrary to your example, we did not commission GS to develop anything for us. They are not behind with anything they contractually committed to us. They are in no way "obligated" to tell us anything.

We pay for a tool "as is" and base our continued support and use on the direction the tool is taking and the commitment they show.

I am much happier using GS as is, if it suits my needs now, and get pleasantly surprised if a new feature gets announced, than setting myself up for disappointment because the feature that was announced has been stymied for weeks by some unforeseen change by Apple and co.

Yes, a roadmap is an important indicator for the community, but let us not expect and demand more future commitment and foresight from GS than we would from other companies like Adobe, Apple, etc., we use on a daily basis.

UtopianGames

It certainly feels like a sinking ship, personally ive all but stopped using GS and don't log on here very much nowadays but feel your pain guys.

Hope I'm wrong but the way the creator is ie lacking key features, memory issues, difficult to work on and update, graphene cancelled its not looking good here.

Let's not beat around the bush after 6 years GS should be in better shape, try importing a dozen retina images 2048*1536 into a project and watch the memory rise and rise because it doesn't dump ram.

The_Gamesalad_Guru

@Hopscotch said:

You're right which is why I'm measuring my options. I owe them nothing and they owe me nothing. I'm simply giving them a chance to keep my business before I decide to move on.

Thunder_Child

This is a bit concerning...this post. With all my rants and raves....and there have been many...my confidence level actually has increased lately. Maybe still very unsure of the longevity of GS but with the "recent" changes in build updates...change in gameplan for GS and internal structure of GS...I have renewed hope for GameSalad. @Lost_Oasis_Games @gingagaming you both know probably as well as anyone else in the forums what to expect from GS...having been around long enough to see allllll the changes over the years.

I can say my subscription to GS is ready for renewal and I plan on doing it. I am having surgery on the 15th of this month and will be off for at least a month. I currently have about 8 apps I have been testing...tweeting and plan on a big release of many apps by that months time off. After that I will have about 11 months left of my subscription to make one uber game and only one and utilize everything I know..make some tutorials and help new people as much as I can. So I feel about 80/20 on the positive side of GS currently. That 20% makes me want to learn Swift really bad.

As far as a "State of GameSalad" goes...I totally agree they are way past due...even if it's totally from the heart and doesn't include any roadmap for the future...6-8 months ago My state of GS was...they are about to close their doors but now I feel better about things until I see this kind of post. I hope they do something soon that makes you feel better about GS...people like you ARE a good barometer like was mentioned. We do value your opinions.

Armelline

I'm not as concerned as some of you guys, but I would really like to see a weekly/fortnightly update on their current progress and immediate plans. Definitely room for an uptick in communication again.

@gingagaming said:
Broken releases, no real concentration on a solid product.

Seems pretty clear that all their concentration right now is on a solid product. 0.13.37 is shaping up to be incredibly stable. Don't think any of the people who PM'd CodeWizard BlackCloakGS to help test it have managed to crash the latest build all weekend, and they went through 8 builds in a matter of a couple of days. They're focusing very hard on getting the Creator as stable as possible and squashing some old bugs, and after missing bugs in the past few releases have reached out to the community for help with real-world testing. This all seems very encouraging to me.

The_Gamesalad_Guru

@Armelline said:
I'm not as concerned as some of you guys, but I would really like to see a weekly/fortnightly update on their current progress and immediate plans. Definitely room for an uptick in communication again.

Seems pretty clear that all their concentration right now is on a solid product. 0.13.37 is shaping up to be incredibly stable. Don't think any of the people who PM'd CodeWizard BlackCloakGS to help test it have managed to crash the latest build all weekend, and they went through 8 builds in a matter of a couple of days. They're focusing very hard on getting the Creator as stable as possible and squashing some old bugs, and after missing bugs in the past few releases have reached out to the community for help with real-world testing. This all seems very encouraging to me.

Like I said that's all great but worthless to your customers unless you share it publicly. I'm not a mind reader and the history with GS is not good. The need a total brand rebuild. This means communication. I for one have been here many times only to see hope fade over and over. I can honestly say this is the only product I've ever given this much leeway to other than Apple but they usually right the ship rather quickly. Apple might be secretive but they've earned that right with a solid track record of success after success.

It would also be nice to know why we are blocked to publish html 5 through Tizen. A simple because it would expose company secrets would be fine. To just block it and just keep us in the dark is unacceptable to me. Sure you don't have to formally support it but don't block us without a candid explanation. This is the type of thing that frustrates me. I can accept reasonable explanations but no explanation I can't accept.

Armelline

@Lost_Oasis_Games said:
Like I said that's all great but worthless to your customers unless you share it publicly. I'm not a mind reader and the history with GS is not good. The need a total brand rebuild. This means communication. I for one have been here many times only to see hope fade over and over. I can honestly say this is the only product I've ever given this much leeway too other than Apple but they usually right the ship rather quickly. Apple might be secretive but they've earned that right with a solid track record of success after sucess.

I agree completely they should be doing the state of GameSalad posts. Even just saying "We're working on a new build to fix crashes, should be available soon, just a few more issues to sort" would be a big encouragement. But we know the following things from previous, repeated, public statements:

1. They're working on making Creator as stable as possible.
2. They're focusing their efforts on making the product they deliver as good as possible.

This is what people have wanted for years, and now they're giving us it. I spent dozens of hours over the past few days working with the latest 0.13.37 build and it's looking great. Super, super solid.

The_Gamesalad_Guru

@Armelline said:
This is what people have wanted for years, and now they're giving us it. I spent dozens of hours over the past few days working with the latest 0.13.37 build and it's looking great. Super, super solid.

That's like my customer asking me how's the progress on my casino and me replying "yeah buddy we're working on it." Let's be honest game salad is not Adobe or apple et... I can buy final cut and use it for years without an update or photoshop. I don't rely on them to output anything even if Apple shut down or Adobe I could use their product for years before moving on. With GS I rely on them to publish et... GS is not a one and done product. At least with some other game platforms I can output an Xcode project and compile myself, which if the stopped et..I could still get by until I moved on.

robertkdale

Honestly, I agree with much of what Lost_Oasis_Games has said.

However I am happy with GS focus on creating one solid product instead of over stretching them selves thin with additional products. I always felt as though Graphene was a bit much considering all of the issue with the original GS.

Even so, I really hope Game Salad is here to stay as I have spent 3 years as a pro member learning the program. Yes it has some shortcomings but with added features and more communication it can be an even better product.

I really love the easy of use with GS. Although it could benefit from way more features like exporting files to more platforms like steam, enhanced Mac publishing features etc… Additionally features like being able to control mobile Cameras, audio recorders, and lights would be nice as well.

Lastly, does anyone have any news on the state of GameSalad?

gingagaming

@Armelline said:
Seems pretty clear that all their concentration right now is on a solid product.

But 0.13.37 isn't released, it was only available to those who had time to test it and then only if you read the forum post. So to those including myself, it isn't pretty clear. It unknown as we have to work off what we know and that is that the current build which is unstable as well as the 2 prior to that. Only 0.13.33 is stable and that has its own issues.

I trust you are right about 0.13.37 and welcome the release.

Armelline

Sounds like GameSalad doesn't offer what you want. I'm with @Hopscotch - I take GameSalad for what it is, and it does what I want and need it to, and lets me make games at blistering speed (though I still regularly nag them for things I want - would be silly not to!). Maybe you should be exploring other options if GameSalad doesn't do enough for you.

robertkdale

Thanks @Armelline for the update. It is much appreciated!

Armelline

@gingagaming said:
But 0.13.37 isn't released, it was only available to those who had time to test it and then only if you read the forum post. So to those including myself, it isn't pretty clear.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect GameSalad to email all users saying "Here's our current focus", so I think them saying it on the forums is sufficient to qualify as making it clear. And they've said it time and time again over the past few months. So if it isn't pretty clear to you, it's because you're just not paying enough attention

Build 0.13.37 is another matter entirely - that's evidence too but it's not what I was basing my "pretty clear" statements on.

That said, I put dozens of hours into build 0.13.36 and sure it crashed a couple of times but I'd not call it unstable, and definitely not unusable. But as anyone who makes anything will know, with GameSalad or coding, you squash one set of bugs and another pops up. The important thing is that they're focussing so hard on squashing them.

gingagaming

@Armelline said:
it's because you're just not paying enough attention

I paid attention and saw the post, I just didn't have the spare time to "test" it as the post asked us to do. Maybe that was my error

In any event, if its stable I'm sure it will be out soon and be enjoyed by all!

Armelline

@gingagaming said:
I paid attention and saw the post, I just didn't have the spare time to "test" it as the post asked us to do. Maybe that was my error

I just do my work with test builds until I find either they're too unstable to use, or run up against a bug that I can't avoid. At that point I roll back to a stable build. (As I had to do several times while testing this one.) No extra time or effort really needed, just the motivation to help improve things (No dig intended there.)

Socks

@Lost_Oasis_Games said:
I've been around here for going on five years now. The lack of any news or direction lately has me wondering about how long game salad might be around.

I made this very point to someone in a PM yesterday.

Braydon_SFX

I'm not worried too much - though I agree that weekly posts are missed and I think bring those back would encourage the community.

Socks

@Armelline said:
Seems pretty clear that all their concentration right now is on a solid product. 0.13.37 is shaping up to be incredibly stable.

Never heard of it, didn't even know there was a 0.13.37 in testing, and I check out the forums as much as anyone (a quick search for 0.13.37 reveals only this thread) . . . which backs up Dave's point . . .

@Lost_Oasis_Games said:
. . . that's all great but worthless to your customers unless you share it publicly.

I think at a time when people would likely be more unsure about the future of the software than they have been for years keeping them up to date might dispel their concerns - (but who knows, maybe the sales figures say something else, after all the forum is just a small representation of a certain demographic of users) . . . but the opposite seemed to have happened (at least that's my perception), a change at the top, people sacked, staff numbers cut, Graphene cancelled, another change in direction and . . . comparative radio silence !

Armelline

Never heard of it, didn't even know there was a 0.13.37 in testing, and I check out the forums as much as anyone (a quick search for 0.13.37 reveals only this thread) . . . which backs up Dave's point . . .

There were repeated requests for help testing in the 0.13.36 thread :P But they got a handful which is all they really need I guess!

GameAlchemist

I hope they give us a surprise with custom collision/font/joints altogether on a single day

Armelline

@GameAlchemist said:
I hope they give us a surprise with custom collision/font/joints altogether on a single day

If that happens I'll be buying a lottery ticket too.

The_Gamesalad_Guru

@Socks said:
the opposite seemed to have happened (at least that's my perception), a change at the top, people sacked, staff numbers cut, Graphene cancelled, another change in direction and . . . comparative radio silence !

Exactly, I'm no mind reader. It's obvious getting rid of the free model was to gauge the real revenue metrics. Part of their current SWOT analysis. In these modes radio silence is an uncomfortable place to be. Is down up or is up down? Who knows. I'm just asking the question.

So this get to my original point. Without communication I'm left reading the tea leaves to decide if I should invest my time and or money in future things. So here I am simply asking and trying to find out should I or shouldn't I? I think it is a fair question to ask. I'm not saying I'm leaving today or give me an answer now but I have to evaluate my position in the next month to decide where I should place my bets.

Socks

@Armelline said:
There were repeated requests for help testing in the 0.13.36 thread :P But they got a handful which is all they really need I guess!

I completely missed that . . . just checked out the thread, there's just one short post about this (and a further note on the end of a post addressed to Duesl) . . . anyhow we're drifting from the point, which is there seems to be a downturn in communication at exactly the time when communication would be useful in quelling the fears of the rowdy masses

Socks

@Armelline said:
If that happens I'll be buying a lottery ticket too.

That's the day I'll be selling my magic beans too.

Armelline

@Socks Yes, the point here is that people are worried for the future of their games and even a little reassurance would go a long way!